Interview #1

"My Life And Guitar"

(Interview from Guitar Player Magazine, Feb 1975):

Mahavishnu John McLaughlin has taken the guitar

further in the last two years of his career than most

players hope to in a lifetime. His approach to the

instrument, coupled with a superb technical

mastery, has recently garnered him GP's 1974

awards as Best Jazz Guitarist and Best Overall

Guitarist. His devotion to the guitar is never-ending,

and the pioneering work he has done with the

double-necked instrument makes these

advancements even more important.

Acknowledging that this interview for GP was the

first of its type he had ever given, John was

entertaining, encompassing, Ind effusive in

discussing his past work, guitar approach, and

ultimate goals.

Because his previous playing involved stints with

such greats as trumpeter Miles Davis, bassist Jack

Bruce, and drummer Tony Williams, it is natural to

pre-date these instrumental excursions, and search

out the true beginnings of Mahavishnu John

Mcl,aughlin's musical development. -SR

My mother was a violinist, and I had three brothers

who were into music. So, from when I was about 4

there was a lot of music happening in the house.

Symphonic music, basically classical music. But

when I was around 7 we got a gramophone, and

that was the first time I actually heard anything in

music, ever recognized anything. I remember quite

regularly putting a record on the player, and getting

one of my mother's knitting needles and waving my

arms around in front of the mirror and "conducting"

this orchestra. But I quickly found out hat it was

much more satisfying if I knew the music, because

then I could bring the violins in here and the horns

in there.

I recall hearing things that really moved me, like the

last movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. It's

a vocal quartet that's so unbelievable that it used to

make my hair stand on end -- it still does, actually. I

didn't know what it was except it that this music

used to give me a thrill, and this thrill was

wonderful. I continued to just listen to music until I

was 9; then I started learning classical piano.

I did that for about three years, taking lessons; then

a guitar came into the house via one of my brothers.

It went from him, to the next one, to the next one, to

me. And that was the beginning of the beginning.

No sooner had the guitar come into my hands than

I was exposed to the black ethnic blues culture

through Big Bill Broonzy, Muddy Waters, Leadbelly,

and the Mississippi Delta blues players. I was really

into Sonny Terry (he wasn't with Browie Mc Ghee,

then) and the whole

blues-harmonica-guitarbottleneck thing. I didn't even

know what a bottleneck was. For years I thought

they were doing it with their fingers. I was trying to

sing and play like Big Bill and Muddy, you know,

"sing da blooze." I was around 12 then.

I had also been exposed to Spanish flamenco music,

which is so heavy, so strong, because you improvise

and it's very bluesy, too. Then at about 14, I heard

Django Reinhardt and started using a pick instead

of just my first fingernail. Immediately I tried to play

like Django, then I heard Tal Farlow—my first white

American guitarist (although when I first heard

[pianist] Oscar Peterson, I said, "Oscar Peterson.

Wow! He must be Swedish!"). Tal Farlow really took

me out, because he was ahead of his time - or

maybe he was just right in his time. His chords and

his single-line work became very powerful influences

on me. Jim Hall, too, but Tal Farlow really did it to

me.

Then I heard Miles [Davis]. I bought that album,

Milestones, [Col., CS 9428] with Miles, [John]

Coltrane, Cannonball Adderley, Red Clarland, Philly

Joe Jones, and Paul Chambers. That completely

blew away my previous concepts of how to

improvise. I had been aware of two movements in

jazz: The West Coast thing with [Stan] Getz,

[Lennie] Tristano — a cool kind of thing; the East

Coast was the hard bop movement. I'm sure it

wasn't like this in America, but it was as far as I was

concerned, in England.

The hard bop movement, which was a black

movement, was where it was at for me. And the

Miles-Coltrane thing was a logical extension of hard

bop. As individual players they were unbelievable,

and collectively they were fantastic. The rhythm

section had a concept that was phenomenal; still is.

Then I started listening to their other records—like

when Cannonball left Miles and got the quintet with

his brother Nat, and Coltrane left to work with

[Theolonius] Monk. And as time went by I

discovered earlier recordings of Coltrane, like from

1948-50, and he became a dominating influence on

my life, spiritually as well as musically.

At the same time I still hadn't lost my love of

classical music. I gradually found myself listening

more and more to 20th Century composers. [Bela]

Bartok was stupendous; Anton Webern is to me a

musician who realized the music of the spheres;

Stravinsky another one. Whew! Then you've got

people like [Maurice] Ravel, [Claude] Debussy.

There's lots of them. And then the [East] Indian

culture came into my life and became a very

important part of it.

I had my first band when I was about 15, in school.

I played electric guitar; it was an acoustic that I put

a pickup on and played through a record player.

That was my first and last band right up until the

first [Mahavishnu] Orchestra. I was always a

sideman, but that was fine by me because I was

learning. I still am. Furthermore, I needed a lot of

time to develop what I've achieved today. I've been

playing guitar a long time, 20-21 years now —

probably a lot longer than some Guitar Player

readers have been listening. But it doesnt make me

feel old, for some strange reason. I was playing in in

a lot of different groups in England - alot of different

music: R & B, avant garde jazz, Jimmy Smith

Trio-type. About ten years ago, when I was 21, I was

with the Grahm Bond Organization with Jack Bruce

and Ginger Baker. They were the greatest rythm

section in the world at that time. Later, Jack was in

Lifetime for a year with Tony Williams, Larry Young

and me. I'd play with Jack and Ginger anytime,

they're beautiful.

About twelve years ago was the Georgie Fame era.

There was just one clum in London where everyone

played. I was with Georgie Fame, Jack and Ginger

were with Alexis korner along with Mick Jagger who

was vocalist, and Eric Clapton was with John

Mayall. That's where I first met Eric. I really liked

his playing. He was just playing blues, but I liked it

because my first guitar experiences were like Muddy

Waters and Leadbelly. They were baaad guitar

players, I'm telling you. Eric had like a sweet blues

thing.

During this whole time I went through many guitars

and amps, because like most musicians, you pay

your dues. You've got to take all kinds of jobs, and

you can't always make enough money to live, so I've

bought some guitars I had to sell. I was using

Gibson mostly, and Gretch and Fender. I was using

a Les Paul Custom in the early days of the first

Orchestra, but then I got the idea for a double neck.

I had an electric 12-string, but to play it I had to

take the other guitar off and it was such a

unnecessary hassle. Then I saw this doubleneck

catalogue and thought, "Just flick a switch and

youve got your 12-string!" So I ordered it and it took

off from there. My first one was a Gibson, but I did

look at a Mosrite. The order took about four

months: I picked it up in Chicago during Christmas

of 1971.

Full utilization of both necks comes fastest through

working. When you're up there on stage and you've

got to play the thing, you do it. I tend to do the

arpeggiated chords on the 12-string. They sound

best there, because you've got a shimmer, like a

liquid movement, like a river. And it's sonorous, it's

sweet, it's clear, and it's bell-like, which you can't

get on the 6-string.

You can sort of see the two necks in different roles:

One in terms of chords, the other melody - be they

rythmical or arpeggiated. I do play melody on the

12-string sometimes, though, and then I hit both of

the paired strings when I solo. It's a beautiful

instrument; I'm glad someone invented it. The

12-string has a different action than the 6-string,

and you have to adapt to it. It's stiffer, so you have

to execute everything properly, every single note.

The double-neck i'm using now was made by Rex

Bogue in Los Angeles. I asked Gibson to make me

another one, because the first one was custom. It

had ebony fingerboards and I wanted bigger frets

because I found them easier for pulling. So I said

they'd like to do something maybe, if I'd like to

endorse one. I said sure, so they agreed to make

me a special guitar. I said i'd like this and this but it

took them a year to do it - they had strikes and

everything. Finally I got it, but they had only done

one thing I asked and that was the writing of

"Sweetest Is My Lord" on the necks. The one thing

they'd done was the least important as far as the

music. The electronics they hadn't done, the neck

they hadn't done, the body shape they hadn't done,

they hadn't even used the right wood. And they

obviously didn't care about me; they might care

about some big star, but not about me. I've got the

guitar - it's brand new, I've never used it.

I had wanted the neck to go to D, because the other

one only went to C, and thats low - I mean if you

want to get to E then good-bye, no way. And E is

pretty natural for the guitar. I also wanted the

guitar in stereo; I wanted the necks separate and

with ebony fingerboards, I wanted deeper cutaways

and Grover tuners. The pickups were fine -

humbuckings are good pickups. So around then I

was working at the Whiskey in Los Angeles, and this

guy burst in the room with this guitar and case and

said I had to have a look at his guitar. It was a

hollowed out solidbody - beautiful little guitar with

flowers giong down the neck, and this beautiful

Ebony board. The neck was really fine too. His

craftmanship was impeccable, faultess. He was also

int electronics, so he said, " I have to make you a

guitar!" So I said go right ahead. He spent thirteen

months hand-carving and sweating blood over it. I

even got my acoustic guitar in LA, from mark Evan

Whitebook. I must say though, that a gibson J-200

with a rosewood body was the best guitar I ever

had. It was light, but the top split.

On my Bogue double-neck there's a master volume

so one volume can control both necks or just one if

thats all I have on. I also have individual volume

controls so I can preset them; then when I hit the

neck switch I'll be at a specific volume. But I can't

go to a specific tone, because the tone controls are

for both necks together. To compensate for that I've

got a pickup switch, plus Rex took tappings off the

coils so I can get sounds out of the pickups that are

amazing. By putting them in phase or out of phase

or opposing the coils together I can get more

brilliance, roll the bass right off, bring the middle in,

roll the top off, roll the bass in --- there are all kinds

of things I can do just by phasing the coils. I can get

a lot of tonal range and response that I can pre-set

on the neck. Secondly, it's 2 ot a pre-amp built right

into it.

This guitar in combination with the amp [Boogie

Amps from Prune Music in Mila Valley, Calif.] allows

almost every note to sustain almost indefinitely

without feeding back. I just happened to hit on the

right combination. This amp is loud, and it's all tube

(I think you get more pure overtones with tubes). I

used to use Marshall amplifiers, but with my current

band they would be too heavy. I don't need them.

That was a problem I had with the previous band —

the volume would sometimes be ome oppressive,

just too loud, destroying the musical content.

This amplifier has three volume controls: For the

pre-amp, the mid-amp, and one is like the output

amp or something. Each one is Very sensitive. The

thing that is so beautiful is that I could sit right in a

hotel room and have low volume, but still get heavy

sustain just by altering the volumes. I would say it's

the best guitar amp in the world, and I've tried quite

a few. But if you ge into MacIntosh or Bose amps,

which I might, then they're, reat. Rex is thinking of

making me a guitar synthesizer, and to do that we

might need a Maclntosh or something. I like

synthesizers; I have a little mini-Moog at home that I

use.

I only use a few pedals: A De Armond volume pedal,

and a thing called a frequency shifter, where I'm

able to split the notes—the beginning of a

synthesizer.

My picks I make out of plastic. They're shaped

somewhat like a very small Indian bead. one side is

flat, the other is grooved so I can get a hold of it.

They're very stiff and quite wide [approx. 1/16"]. 1

use Darco strings: .008, .010, .012, .019, .029,

.039. I just adopt these gauges for the 12-string so

that I have two 8's and two 10's on top, then a 12

and an 8 for the G. a 19 and a 10 for the D, a 29

and a 12 on the A, and a 39 and 19 for the E. I

used to have to Epoxy the windings, because if I

really pulled a string I'd pull the winding off. I went

back to Darco, and they've changed the windings

and apparently been very successful.

Playing speed is all relative, really if someone thinks

I play fast, they should hear John Coltrane. I mean,

he just rips up and down that horn, and the notes

fall out like a cascade. It's all just a feeling, and I'd

lake to be able to articulate that feeling on the

guitar. You can do anything, with work. Anything is

possible, and it's up to you. If you're willing to spend

hours working, devoting and dedicating yourself to

the articulation and execution, then sooner or later

you're going to come through.

I practice all the scales. Everyone should know lots

of scales. Actually, I feel there are anly scales. What

is a chord, if not the notes of a scale hooked

together? There are several reasons for learning

scales: One, the knowledge will unlock the neck for

you, you'll learn the instrument. Second, if I say I

want you to improvise over Gmaj7augS, then go to

Ebaug9b5 then to Bmaj7b5 - well, if you don't know

what those chords are in scale terms you're lost.

I used to lock myself in my room with a little

cassette recorder, choose chords and analyze them

to find out what they were. Like why certain notes

sounded certain ways in a major seventh against a

particular note. And you have to know many scales

in many positions you have to be able to move. In

classical terms there is the Dorian, Aeolian, Lydian,

Ionian, Lochrian; then you've got the synthetic scales

Hungarian minor, Neopolitan minor, Super Lochrian,

the symmetrical, the major-minor. And there are all

the harmonic progressions, maybe get there faster,

but I didn't have a school to go to. All I had was

chords, and I had to unlock them. It's not all that

difficult, but you have to be ready to apply yourself,

to do some homework for at least a year—longer,

actually. I went through a period where I wanted to

play everything in chords so I had to find out

substitutions and inversions and all that You

discover a lot of things when you do that.

Not only do you have to know scales though, you

have to know rythm, because rhythm is of supreme

importance. It's hard to say how you learn this - you

can practice with a metronome or, preferably, a

drummer. I used to use a cassette player, and write

down random sets of chords, then play them

rhythmically— 6/8, 4/8, 3/8, 7/8, 5/8, 9/8, 11/8,

13/8, 21/8, anything you want. Just write out some

sequences and improvise through them. Eventually

you start finding chinks in your knowledge, and then

some lights in the darkness.

The joy of music is like the joy a runner gets from

running, and, musically, I'm running. If music

doesn't carry any deep emotion, then what's it for?

You find notes that are more joyful to you, and you

play them at a fast tempo, and people will get

something from it.